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Post by kt_dragonfly on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 11:45

Generally a breeder wouldn't refund on a puppy if returned and if they did it would be a good will gesture and probably not even a full refund.

It maybe worth maybe going back to the breeder and seeing if Saxon had some time with his parents/siblings if any left and having a play session and such may help.

I'm looking at going across to see Lorraine with Sprocket and Belle at the weekend (not Penny). Sprocket to wear him out and Belle to put him in his place, as shes very much a top dog when she wants to be, especially after having her own pups.

My mate Craig has offered to take me over :)

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Post by Lorraine on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 12:37

Saxon is not going back to the breeder, no matter what.  Tina's spot on there.
It would be lovely to see you Kate.

Anyhow, hopefully some progress.  I am going back to square one.  Too much stuff overloaded Saxon and myself.
I had a thought that if anybody could help, it would be the RAF Police Dog Training Unit, so a couple of hours ago, I took Saxon to the section to ask for some help and advice, not expecting what I got.  4 of them stopped what they were doing and spent an hour and a half with us.  Difficult when they didn't actually see how bad he can be but looking at my arms gave them a good clue.

They said he's an awesome looking puppy and he is NOT aggressive.  If he was, he would bite everybody and not just me and that yes, coming away from the litter so early is definitely a cause of the problem.  What he's doing with me is what he would do with his litter mates and mother, but because she's not there to teach him he doesn't know when to stop and so he's trying to control the situation.  They also noticed that I'm a tad nervy when he jumped on me.  

He played with them and explored the dogs field and then they brought out Ali, a Belgian Malinois, who won't put up with any nonsense and he lamped Saxon a couple of times.  After a bit of this, they were more than convinced that he's not aggressive and that we have a strong bond as he kept coming back and nestling into me.  I told them he never does that at home and it's one of the things I desperately want from him.

They asked me if I'd ever pinned him and I said that I was ashamed to admit that I had tried it but it didn't work.  They said not to be ashamed and it's what I must do as constant positive reinforcement isn't working with him and anyway, how can a dog learn positive when there's no negative to go with it (which is what I'd always thought anyway, so that made me feel a bit better). 

As it turns out, when I did pin him, I was doing it wrong.  I had him on his back with my hand across his throat.  This is apparently a prey/kill position and he will fight to get away, and so I was making it worse.  I was also not carrying through until he actually stopped biting.  Jimmy showed me how to pin correctly by holding his collar at a slight twist and making sure his neck/head is on the ground and saying a very firm and loud NO!.  If Saxon bites again when I let go, I pin him again and so on, until when I let go he doesn't bite, he must never win.  Then I walk away with no praise, giving Saxon time to digest that he bit but got nothing good from it at all, not even a bit of praise when he stopped, so there's no point in doing it.

They also asked if I played tug games.  Ummmmm, yep!  OK, they stop NOW!  Tug games are possessive and will also make things worse (how did I think they start their dogs learning to attack and hold criminals?).  I can play with the same toys with him, but the minute Saxon tugs, I must let go until he learns that he's to let go if he wants to play with that particular toy with me.

Because the dog section is busy and undermanned, they can't promise to give me regular sessions or anything, but they want me to phone in a couple of days to let them know how I'm going and if things aren't working out, they will find some time for me to try something else.  They said not to worry, he's not aggressive, ALL dogs can be trained and there is always a solution, it's just a case of finding the one that works for me and my dog.  They also said I've got to make a concerted effort not to show that I'm nervous.

So, I came away with a clear head and only 2 things to work on.  No tugging and pinning.

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Post by Scrap Monkey on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 12:46

cheers brilliant, what a great idea to go and see them. Very Happy 

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Post by kt_dragonfly on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 12:46

clap clap clap clap clap 

Sounds like a good morning Lorraine and inspired idea. Love the idea of Ali being like "Oi pup stop it" thwack lol

Just looking at trains and stuff now, love a good afternoon out, especially if its one where I can wear out my devil in a furry overcoat lol

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Post by Di Masters on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 13:09

As we all thought, problems stemmed from no lessons learnt from his mum to put him in his place.
That's good to hear Lorraine, some useful advice from experts. Fingers crossed he gets the message!

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Post by WeirdCat on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 14:06

That's brilliant news Lorraine!

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Post by Lorraine on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 14:34

Well, let's just hope I can do it eh? Mr Green  I must admit, I'm feeling more positive today and I think having a really good cry was needed yesterday too.

I've had to pin him once so far...well, it was a 3 time once, but he stopped and I walked.

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Post by Maria on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 16:24

BRAVO BRAVO, this has really brightened my day. Very good news all round, fab idea to go and see them and you have come away with a clear plan. You were never this clear after Paddy left. Im so pleased and it all sounds great.

For what its worth thats the same advice I got from the dog club with Bracken and I often had to pin several times consecutively and I wasnt doing it right either, I wasnt waiting till she was compeltely still. It worked with Bracken within say a month, then I had to do it a couple more times only in certain situations and that was it.

Im so pleaed you have a plan, and had some help and feel supported. It may be that he does really need to play with other dogs too, to be 'put in his place' a bit, and it was great that it made him see you as a protector

I also would like to thank Tina for her comment, we know how she feels but she was a big enough person to just make that lovely comment.

We're none of us experts, but bascially we all want the same thing here, just for this to work out and for Lorraine to be happy with Saxon and vice versa.

way to go girl.

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Post by Scrap Monkey on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 16:27

Don't really understand what you mean Maria, just chuffed to bits that Lorraine has found a way to get some practical help.

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Post by Lorraine on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 16:46

Thanks girls, so much.

One other thing. As of tomorrow, he's on a raw diet. Mr Green

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Post by kimb on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 17:03

what briiant news and great idea to go to them lorraine .I feel relieved too that at last you have something to work on that might work . I sure hope it does and if the raf dog unit dont know how to train a dog then noone does so ..fingers crossed it all helps .ive been so worried about you and I feel calmer allready. god knows what difference its made to you if thats how I feel.

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Post by Scatty on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 17:56

YAY.  Laughing 

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Post by cb on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 20:51

I was really worried when I first read about this but now so pleased you seem to be getting some advice that will hopefully work. Good news that Kate is going to try and visit. Still having one or two problems here with Meg so maybe I'll give you a ring when I'm off on Thursday and we can have a doggy chat.
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Post by Lorraine on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 21:29

Yes, I'm feeling much more positive Kim. Had a bit of a do earlier when he was a bugger but it was expected. It's weird, but about 6.00 every evening, he starts to go crackers. Lots of pinning involved which wasn't pleasant for either of us, but hey ho! It's only day one.

Would be lovely to have a chat Cath.

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Post by WeirdCat on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 21:35

Max goes doolally at about 6 each evening, not sure why, not bitey but just up and down and won't settle at all.

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Post by Lorraine on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 21:51

I think it's weird and can't get a handle on it either.

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Post by kimb on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 22:36

billy used to have a mad half hour where he just ran from room to room and on and off the sofas . its stopped now though.
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Post by Scrap Monkey on Tue 29 Jul 2014 - 22:45

Does it coincide with food or hunger maybe?

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Post by Maria on Wed 30 Jul 2014 - 7:58

Even angelic jemma does that about 6, it is near food time for her but doubt
Its that cos shes not a great eater yet.

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Post by Lorraine on Wed 30 Jul 2014 - 9:22

We eat at 5.30 and Saxon is crated. He's fed when we're finished. Only thing is, his mad half hour lasts all evening.

He's just had his first meal of chicken and veg. Loved it. He even ate a sprout as a treat, lol.

Had a couple of nips this morning already but nothing I felt the need to pin him for. I need to let him do a bit of biting.

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Post by Maria on Wed 30 Jul 2014 - 9:44

er why? (though Im glad its only nips and not real bites - already an improvement). Every time he does it is an opportunity for you to show him that its not the thing to do.

why do you need to let him bite at all? I mean maybe hes just testing you like 'ok, Im not allowed to bite, but am I allowed to do this'

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Post by Lorraine on Wed 30 Jul 2014 - 11:04

Because it's a natural thing Maria and he has to learn bite inhibition. When he knows how far he can go, he'll grow out of it naturally. As they explore and learn with their mouths, especially when teething, it can do more harm than good to stop it completely.

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Post by gingerjo on Wed 30 Jul 2014 - 21:24

GLAD you found some help from RAF, good idea. I agree with everything Ruth said. maya was taken away from her mum too early and she and her sister are so nervous about things which they may not have been if left with mum.

RAW diet all the way, need any help, just yell. Maya has been on it for 18mths or so now. calmed her down a bit, but really helped her stomach probs she had. Please make sure you have the right amounts for him tho as he is only a pup. I am sure my friend would help you with correct weight of food. You do need supplements too Lorraine. It does work out cheaper and is the best diet they can have. Although not all vets agree!

Scullcap and valerian sent Maya dolally, she is on half an L-theanine capsule to try help with her anxieties. Its a human thing and has really calmed me down.

But he is still a puppy, he has zoomies at 6pm, most puppies do. Maya still occasionally zooms round and round chasing her tail,lol. Can you take him for a walk then to tire him for the evening maybe?

Hopefully after our hols we could pop over, Maya will tell him I think. She puts up with Toby who has no manners at all at 8mths. He is a Bijoux (sp), she eventually curls her lip or air snaps at him. She loves GS usually so I am sure she would be good. Would that be ok?

I hated it when she used my hand as a teething ring but she didn't break skin. She would never do it now and I was ready to give her up, I remember screaming at Bob to take her away. But now if she accidently catches me with her teeth she kisses like mad to say sorry. I did the bit inhibition thing and eventually she learnt.
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Post by gingerjo on Thu 31 Jul 2014 - 7:59

I just wondered if you had advice about raw diet? When starting they should only be on raw chic mince and raw whizzed up veg. Sweet pot and carrot is good to start. Do NOT introduce another meat until he is used to this. Raw chicken wings are good next. Then you gradually intro another meat eg turkey on one day if i rememember right. sorry you may have this info, but its important to do it properly. Where are you going to get your food from. DAF foods deliver to individual households i think. My friend gets it all and then we buy from her. He will need kelp adding, salmon oil, cider vinegar. All important supplements. Brewers yeast tab good flea deterrant and help with behaviour. You have had enough prbs, please maku do this properly. And do not COOK the food. Might be telling you suck eggs, but amazing how many people do. I bet you notice a huge difference in his behaviour once all additives gone. Its like adhd kids and coke.
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Post by Lorraine on Thu 31 Jul 2014 - 21:42

Well, I'm loathe to tempt fate, but.........there is a definite improvement here, and he jumped on the sofa for a cuddle last night - but I'm going to shut up now, just in case, lol.

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Post by kimb on Thu 31 Jul 2014 - 22:26

yaaay !!!!!!
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Post by Di Masters on Thu 31 Jul 2014 - 22:29

Fingers crossed!

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Post by WeirdCat on Fri 1 Aug 2014 - 9:41

He'll have good and bad days at the moment but yes I hope a corner has been turned

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Post by Lorraine on Fri 1 Aug 2014 - 10:38

Yep! He's been a git this morning.

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Post by Maria on Fri 1 Aug 2014 - 12:28

well just keep on with the same tactics , it will take a while for him to get it and stop testing you

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